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Author Topic: Badgers vs ex-Badgers  (Read 4515 times)
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Barou
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« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2017, 09:33:10 AM »

The discussion actually stemmed from a now gone thread where I pointed out that Wisconsin doesn't actually produce that much talent anymore. Because the Badgers team is dependent on "local" talent, at the very least as filler/backups, and more so for the starting lineup, it makes Badger job harder than we all insinuate.

Considering the lack of in-state talent, Davis has really recruited well in the last 4-5 years, filing the lineup with Top 50 guys from out of state.

BD has done a good job in recruiting Wisconsin kids

What?  Since BD has been HC at UW there has been more success achieved by Wisconsin kids going to out-of-state schools than staying in Wisconsin.  By a landslide.  I think BD has had one finals appearance by a Wisconsin kid under his watch.  Compared to 10 national titles and 3 Hodges by Wisconsin kids at Minnesota, Mizzou, and Oklahoma State.  The bar is set pretty low if that is considered doing a "good" job.
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« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2017, 12:01:10 PM »

The discussion actually stemmed from a now gone thread where I pointed out that Wisconsin doesn't actually produce that much talent anymore. Because the Badgers team is dependent on "local" talent, at the very least as filler/backups, and more so for the starting lineup, it makes Badger job harder than we all insinuate.

Considering the lack of in-state talent, Davis has really recruited well in the last 4-5 years, filing the lineup with Top 50 guys from out of state.

BD has done a good job in recruiting Wisconsin kids

What?  Since BD has been HC at UW there has been more success achieved by Wisconsin kids going to out-of-state schools than staying in Wisconsin.  By a landslide.  I think BD has had one finals appearance by a Wisconsin kid under his watch.  Compared to 10 national titles and 3 Hodges by Wisconsin kids at Minnesota, Mizzou, and Oklahoma State.  The bar is set pretty low if that is considered doing a "good" job.


yes I said that but also please include what else I said before and after that.

looking to get on your horse by cherry picking 1 sentence out of a paragraph?

The discussion actually stemmed from a now gone thread where I pointed out that Wisconsin doesn't actually produce that much talent anymore. Because the Badgers team is dependent on "local" talent, at the very least as filler/backups, and more so for the starting lineup, it makes Badger job harder than we all insinuate.

Considering the lack of in-state talent, Davis has really recruited well in the last 4-5 years, filing the lineup with Top 50 guys from out of state.

I do agree with you and at the same time have a hard time choking down what your saying because you may be right and I am a blinded with love fan for sure.

I do agree that while I think Wisconsin is the best, your probably onto something with saying we might not be producing the talent that I and many fans believe we are producing.

now when I say that, I mean no rip on any wrestler in Wisconsin, what I see is some incredible talent on the rise in Wisconsin.

BD has done a good job in recruiting Wisconsin kids, it is a hit or miss game also and BD has landed some what I felt is cannt miss talent only to have that talent not work out for one reason or another. I cannt blame BD on that.

What may be happening is while us fans think would be a great fit, maybe that certain wrestler isnt a fit. Whether it be grades to get in, school doesnt offer his major or plain and simple doesnt like or want to go to Madison. I know that maybe shocking that some one doesnt like madison but it is a thought.

BD has a line up of Wisconsin kids, could have as many as 5 wisconsin kids in the line up to as little as 2 this year. I dont think that is a bad thing for wisconsin fans though I believe many will argue that so and so is on another team and such but BD does have a slug of Wisco kids.

there use the entire statement.
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« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2017, 12:07:20 PM »

BD has landed the Crasses, Thiekle, Devin Peterson and so on, didnt work out for many reasons and some I cannt blame BD for that.

BD landed Lantz a 4 timer, people would have called for his head if he didnt do that correct?
BD landed the kid that beat Breske, not a bad find.
Crone, Martin, Pessig, Stone all have won matches at the UW. May not be earth shaking but they are in Wisconsin.
He landed Bahr, remains to be seen, Hemauer left, was that BD fault? dont know.

Sure I get it and understand BD did NOT land the Askrens, Conrad, AD. Those are huge. Is there a complete reason that he wasnt able to land those kids? I dont know why they chose other schools over Wisconsin but it certainly worked out for them.

It is a crap shoot at times. Look at all the cannt miss kids that missed from every schools rosters!
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Barou
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« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2017, 01:30:40 PM »

BD has landed the Crasses, Thiekle, Devin Peterson and so on, didnt work out for many reasons and some I cannt blame BD for that.

BD landed Lantz a 4 timer, people would have called for his head if he didnt do that correct?
BD landed the kid that beat Breske, not a bad find.
Crone, Martin, Pessig, Stone all have won matches at the UW. May not be earth shaking but they are in Wisconsin.
He landed Bahr, remains to be seen, Hemauer left, was that BD fault? dont know.

Sure I get it and understand BD did NOT land the Askrens, Conrad, AD. Those are huge. Is there a complete reason that he wasnt able to land those kids? I dont know why they chose other schools over Wisconsin but it certainly worked out for them.

It is a crap shoot at times. Look at all the cannt miss kids that missed from every schools rosters!

What we do know is that Askren was offered a 1/4 scholarship and by his own comments claimed that BD didn't really pursue him.  With AD John Smith made more home visits flying from Oklahoma then BD did.  Allegedly, BD publicly stated that AD didn't have the grades to get into UW.  AD's parents refuted that claim saying BD was less than truthful.  With Konrad and Hartung I would say that was more of a case of J Robinson & Marty Morgan being way better at talent evaluation than BD and recruiting Wisconsin talent to the tune of 4 NCs and 7 AAs between them.  And if you throw in Baier that was a runner-up for Cornell I don't believe there were any academic questions with that group (minus the difference in positions for AD).  Ben A was for surely an All-Big Twelve Honor Roll recipient.  Baier got into an Ivy league school so pretty sure he had the grades to get into Madison.  Can't say for sure on Konrad, Hartung, and M Askren.

Did Lantz accomplish a lot on the national level in HS?  I don't think people would call for BD's head if he missed out on a 4 timer simply because he was a WI 4 timer.  I think it's been pretty well established that in-state HS success isn't the best indicator to college success.
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« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2017, 01:55:04 PM »

BD has landed the Crasses, Thiekle, Devin Peterson and so on, didnt work out for many reasons and some I cannt blame BD for that.

BD landed Lantz a 4 timer, people would have called for his head if he didnt do that correct?
BD landed the kid that beat Breske, not a bad find.
Crone, Martin, Pessig, Stone all have won matches at the UW. May not be earth shaking but they are in Wisconsin.
He landed Bahr, remains to be seen, Hemauer left, was that BD fault? dont know.

Sure I get it and understand BD did NOT land the Askrens, Conrad, AD. Those are huge. Is there a complete reason that he wasnt able to land those kids? I dont know why they chose other schools over Wisconsin but it certainly worked out for them.

It is a crap shoot at times. Look at all the cannt miss kids that missed from every schools rosters!

What we do know is that Askren was offered a 1/4 scholarship and by his own comments claimed that BD didn't really pursue him.  With AD John Smith made more home visits flying from Oklahoma then BD did.  Allegedly, BD publicly stated that AD didn't have the grades to get into UW.  AD's parents refuted that claim saying BD was less than truthful.  With Konrad and Hartung I would say that was more of a case of J Robinson & Marty Morgan being way better at talent evaluation than BD and recruiting Wisconsin talent to the tune of 4 NCs and 7 AAs between them.  And if you throw in Baier that was a runner-up for Cornell I don't believe there were any academic questions with that group (minus the difference in positions for AD).  Ben A was for surely an All-Big Twelve Honor Roll recipient.  Baier got into an Ivy league school so pretty sure he had the grades to get into Madison.  Can't say for sure on Konrad, Hartung, and M Askren.

Did Lantz accomplish a lot on the national level in HS?  I don't think people would call for BD's head if he missed out on a 4 timer simply because he was a WI 4 timer.  I think it's been pretty well established that in-state HS success isn't the best indicator to college success.


Still, Thielke had the national attention, so did Hemauer. I sure don't recall anyone saying than Ben would be a champ when he was coming out of HS. Thielke was supposed to be bullet-proof. Nope.

Ben, AD, Kole, etc. would have been tough to predict coming out of HS. AD probably the most stand out as a high school. I'm just less than impressed with what BD has done to develop the talent. What happened to aggression. Donny and Howe were both "go get 'em" kinda guys. Graff was aggressive, until finals' matches. I can understand why a Herbst would be more defensive; he was a great counter wrestler. I dunno anymore. I guess we get what we deserve. We're not a very noteworthy wrestling state, and our fan base is small. I've been going to UW duals since the mid 80's and it seemed there were more fans then (maybe it seemed more fans, because perhaps it's the belief that hindsight is 20/20, when it never is 20/20) I remember more fans and more into it. Like I say, "hindsight is 20/20" is the most 180 expression in history.

LG is right. Because we're big WI fans, we think Wisconsin wrestling is special in HS and at UW. On a national scale, we're not that special. Not in HS nor college. Nice to have the WIAC.
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« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2017, 01:55:04 PM »

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wrastle63
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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2017, 02:27:18 PM »

At the time almost everyone would have choose Thielke over AD as well. Obviously that didn't work out. I feel like BD has got some of the "better" guys based on public perception, but it hasn't worked out. That could be blamed on talent development, scouting, or some choices the kids make. I feel like lately(past two or three years) we have done really well with recruiting.
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Barou
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2017, 02:50:43 PM »

BD has landed the Crasses, Thiekle, Devin Peterson and so on, didnt work out for many reasons and some I cannt blame BD for that.

BD landed Lantz a 4 timer, people would have called for his head if he didnt do that correct?
BD landed the kid that beat Breske, not a bad find.
Crone, Martin, Pessig, Stone all have won matches at the UW. May not be earth shaking but they are in Wisconsin.
He landed Bahr, remains to be seen, Hemauer left, was that BD fault? dont know.

Sure I get it and understand BD did NOT land the Askrens, Conrad, AD. Those are huge. Is there a complete reason that he wasnt able to land those kids? I dont know why they chose other schools over Wisconsin but it certainly worked out for them.

It is a crap shoot at times. Look at all the cannt miss kids that missed from every schools rosters!

What we do know is that Askren was offered a 1/4 scholarship and by his own comments claimed that BD didn't really pursue him.  With AD John Smith made more home visits flying from Oklahoma then BD did.  Allegedly, BD publicly stated that AD didn't have the grades to get into UW.  AD's parents refuted that claim saying BD was less than truthful.  With Konrad and Hartung I would say that was more of a case of J Robinson & Marty Morgan being way better at talent evaluation than BD and recruiting Wisconsin talent to the tune of 4 NCs and 7 AAs between them.  And if you throw in Baier that was a runner-up for Cornell I don't believe there were any academic questions with that group (minus the difference in positions for AD).  Ben A was for surely an All-Big Twelve Honor Roll recipient.  Baier got into an Ivy league school so pretty sure he had the grades to get into Madison.  Can't say for sure on Konrad, Hartung, and M Askren.

Did Lantz accomplish a lot on the national level in HS?  I don't think people would call for BD's head if he missed out on a 4 timer simply because he was a WI 4 timer.  I think it's been pretty well established that in-state HS success isn't the best indicator to college success.


Still, Thielke had the national attention, so did Hemauer. I sure don't recall anyone saying than Ben would be a champ when he was coming out of HS. Thielke was supposed to be bullet-proof. Nope.

Ben, AD, Kole, etc. would have been tough to predict coming out of HS. AD probably the most stand out as a high school. I'm just less than impressed with what BD has done to develop the talent. What happened to aggression. Donny and Howe were both "go get 'em" kinda guys. Graff was aggressive, until finals' matches. I can understand why a Herbst would be more defensive; he was a great counter wrestler. I dunno anymore. I guess we get what we deserve. We're not a very noteworthy wrestling state, and our fan base is small. I've been going to UW duals since the mid 80's and it seemed there were more fans then (maybe it seemed more fans, because perhaps it's the belief that hindsight is 20/20, when it never is 20/20) I remember more fans and more into it. Like I say, "hindsight is 20/20" is the most 180 expression in history.

LG is right. Because we're big WI fans, we think Wisconsin wrestling is special in HS and at UW. On a national scale, we're not that special. Not in HS nor college. Nice to have the WIAC.

Always tough to predict but when B Askren beat Troy Letters that really put him on the D1 map.  AD was already on the radar and then he beat Dylan Ness at Fargo (convincingly if I recall) and that elevated his stock I believe.  I will say this, if John Smith is coming to WI to recruit a WI kid, then BD is foolish if he isn't recruiting the same wrestler. 

It's been repeated on this forum many times about BD choosing Thielke over AD.  Why was it a "choice"?  It's not like they are two heavyweights that can't go down.  Thielke finished at 141 and AD finished at 165.  Pretty sure the UW lineup would have had room for both of them.
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2017, 02:58:50 PM »

I don't know about recruiting really well. Of course, I'm a little less optimistic of late (obviously). Still gotten some good out of state and good in-state wrestlers. I do think BD and staff have up-ed their game. I also think it's time he think about handing the keys to a younger coach. BA would be my choice. Given my credence and pedigree as a wrestling connoisseur, I have little doubt that the UW admin. will quickly take heed.  Cheesy Still, I'm liking what I'm seeing from the Badgers this year.

I agree on the AD stuff; but, if John Smith comes to talk to you, I'd think BD doesn't stand a chance; except for maybe the academics angle. I don't know anything about AD's academics; so that may or may not have had anything to do with it.

I honestly don't think AD would have even considered WI. Maybe he did. Dunno. I couldn't imagine enough butt-kissing to lure him from Smith.

Just like I don't see us luring Conrad away from JRob. Like Smith, a legend. Also MN has unreal academics. Not quite to the level of UW; but dang fine.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 03:11:55 PM by bigG » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2017, 03:11:58 PM »

Responding to several posts: Brace yourselves, it's long:

I don’t think Devin Peterson was ever “landed” by Wisconsin and Barry Davis... Peterson didn’t set foot on the UW campus and instead went to Iowa Western CC, then Grandview... then Wartburg...

Ohio (University) and Ohio State are two different schools, which may be why we continually here the pretentious “the Ohio State University)

WI has had finalists Howe, Graff, Jordan, and Medberry under Barry Davis. Barry is an Olympic Silver Medalist, a World Silver Medalist, and was a 4X AA and 3X NCAA Champ.  His shortcomings as a head coach may not be due to him... Is the athletic department willing to invest the resources to build a top notch program?  Does Barry have the budget to land and keep top notch assistants around, or to replace them when someone like Donnie Pritzlaff leaves? Does the RTC have the funding to draw coaches and athletes to Madison?  I can’t knock Barry until I know he has the resources he needs to build a better program and he is failing. However, I think Ben A. would immediately generate a lot of excitement, but without the resources, success may be fleeting.  

I think the state of WI high school wrestling is good, just look at how many of our kids are wrestling in college.  However, filling your roster with in state kids means zero if you aren’t landing the top in state talent. What good is having half your starting line up  “local” if your team only has 1-2 AA per year, or finishes on the bottom half of the Big Ten?  I think Schoenherr is the top kid in the state, and Barry landed him (as well as Dow who is #1A).  That is very good for the program.  

In this day and age, the top kids have wrestling dreams and goals beyond college. The assistant coaches and the RTC is the big draw for top talent (as well as being the head coach that is still young enough for kids to remember their Olympic success etc. ie; what Gable had at Iowa and what Cael has at PSU-however, they found a way to keep the program rolling as the years went on through success breeding more success--and they parlayed this into building their RTCs).  Success means better recruits and your top college wrestlers stay home after graduation and continue to train for the next level in that room.  Iowa’s program maintained such a high level of success due to the HWC, (which was funded by booster support which came after the initial NCAA success).  WI RTC hiring Mitch Hull (who I think is a great guy and a good coach) was a bad decision.  He was so far removed from the public’s eye as a competitor and coach due to being in the admin at the OTC for so long, he was not a draw in any way.  Compare that to the hires at other RTCs.  The WI program was moving in the right direction around 2010, then, Donnie left, and the RTC is not a draw at all.... Did you know that not a single WI RTC athlete qualified for the 2016 Olympic Trials
(Medberry was training in Colorado Springs)?
Look at the top programs and look at who their RTC coaches are, and which post college athletes they have training there.  Do you think Breske went to Nebraska because of Mark Manning?  Or, was it Burroughs and Green were big draws to a kid who wants to reach their level of success on the world stage?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 03:14:06 PM by bman » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2017, 03:38:19 PM »

At the time almost everyone would have choose Thielke over AD as well. Obviously that didn't work out. I feel like BD has got some of the "better" guys based on public perception, but it hasn't worked out. That could be blamed on talent development, scouting, or some choices the kids make. I feel like lately(past two or three years) we have done really well with recruiting.


I don;t agree with you at all on this, maybe most WI people thought Thielke over Ad but I dont agree with that nationally. Obviously Smith didn't see Thielke over Dieringer!
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2017, 03:38:19 PM »

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lizard king
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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2017, 04:04:23 PM »

We seem to forget the piece about developing talent.  If Thielke would have went somewhere else would he be a national champ?  Also, if AD or Ben A would have went to WI would they have been national champs?   We will never know but by experience (not Wisconsin) I can tell you that the coaches in the room play a huge role in the kids success, or lake of. Motivation and a desire to wrestle for that coach, and the coach being able to take a kid and develop his talents are a difference maker.
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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2017, 04:08:27 PM »

I would argue Barry/Pritzlaff chose McCauley over AD, not Thielke.  Either way, it did not work out, assuming AD could get into UW. 

McCauley was not successful at multiple stops, so hard to blame Barry there.  Thielke was focusing on greco in the offseason (and I do not blame him), while not wrestling folkstyle at his ideal weight.  There are not many that can overcome that and still AA.
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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2017, 04:12:36 PM »

This is a complex topic. One thing that hasn't had a lot of light shed on it is the fact that over the years WI has generated some "top-shelf" talent that has been recognized as such coming out of HS, e.g. AD, Konrad, BA, etc. Those kind of guys are heavily recruited by all of the top programs; it is tough to keep them in state. Keeping JT in-state was a real coo, IMO. So, when John Smith (or Cael) comes knocking on a kid's door, the UW simply won't have much chance - the force is not with BD.

That said, guys like Hartung, Baier, etc., (evidently) weren't on UW's radar - and they should have been (in hindsight). Those are misses that are hard to make apologies for if one wants to claim the UW knows DI talent when it sees it. As the only WI boy to make the NCAA finals under BD, Henning wasn't a top level recruit. As a home grown boy, he over-achieved...to both his and BD's credit. But that was only one (particularly notable) guy over 20 years.

But more recently, BD has brought in both Graff and Medbery both (out-state) NCAA finalists. They could have gone anywhere - but they chose the UW; BD out-recruited much of the nation for those guys. And before someone gets on here and says that the UW assistants, e.g., Brandvold, Ruschell, etc., were responsible for bringing in those guys, then those same assistant coaches are responsible for the "misses" over that same time period (I get tired of people demonizing BD while giving his assistants a pass for the current situation). They are all in or all out - don't cherry pick the situation.

So yes, the on the mat results have been very average over BD's reign. It is what it is - but you don't have to hang him or lobby for sainthood; most places are average...somebody has to be (by definition). Some on this forum don't like it (which is their right as fans), but others are comfortable in this "skin." That too is okay, IMO - people have differing expectations for collegiate athletics.
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« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2017, 05:21:10 PM »

Including Tim Hartung is a stretch, he was a one time D2 state champion at 160 in 1994, which was the year Barry became the interim head coach at UW.

Nobody could have predicted that Hartung would go 59-1 at 197, he was also interested in playing baseball and that wasn't an option in Madison.
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« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2017, 05:21:10 PM »

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npope
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« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2017, 05:40:59 PM »

Including Tim Hartung is a stretch, he was a one time D2 state champion at 160 in 1994, which was the year Barry became the interim head coach at UW.

Nobody could have predicted that Hartung would go 59-1 at 197, he was also interested in playing baseball and that wasn't an option in Madison.

JRob predicted it. So, somebody saw something others didn't. As a one-time D2 champ in wrestling with similar levels of success in other sports, nobody should have been knocking on Hartung's door, yet there JRob was. That has to say something about his ability to recognize something in a recruit. Just sayin' that BD, like many others, missed that one.
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