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Author Topic: Money; who's got it?  (Read 5721 times)
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Barou
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2017, 08:28:05 AM »


It is the coach.......
Just stop lying to yourselves


What do we think the #1 thing is a coach can do for a program? I can make a very compelling case for that thing being recruit. Quality in = Quality Out, with very few exceptions. If "money" brings in better wrestlers, the team will get better. Period.

Not that Cael is a great example, as he is once-in-a-generation in nearly every way, but if he could build a program regardless of resources, don't you think he would have done it at his alma mater, where he was the head coach? Instead, he went somewhere with more money and a more fertile recruiting base, and lo-and-behold, we have Penn State in it's current incarnation.

Money matters.

Barry's recruiting woes had nothing to do with money.  I do agree, however, that there is a correlation in general.  He simply got out recruited, didn't recruit, lied about a recruit, or incorrectly evaluated a recruit when it came down to the Hodge winners and national champions from WI during his tenure - Hartung, Konrad, B Askren, M Askren, and Dieringer.  3 Hodges and 10 national titles out of that group alone and that's not listing the AA's.
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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2017, 10:49:33 AM »

Not going to argue who he lost; but they weren't Hodges when he "lost" them. Perhaps he was outcoached. Either way, same result. I'm with you, Barou. We have been outcoached, be it recruiting ro what goes on the mat. On the other hand, everyone's been outcoached but Penn State.
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Japanese Whizzer
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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2017, 11:07:32 AM »

Who thinks there's a direct, strong correlation between money in a program and recruiting because ...
...
...

**SPOILER ALERT**

...
...

There is.
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bigG
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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2017, 06:32:31 PM »

Obviously it makes a difference. Seemingly THE difference in PSU, Cornell, among others.
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mkm13
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2017, 08:37:03 AM »

I am not sure who is winning, but both PSU and OSU are spending a ton of money. 

It was recently reported PSU offered Jarod Verkleeren no actually scholarship money but offered him a 4 year-$50,000/year contract with the NLWC after college.  If that is actually within NCAA rules, that is a huge advantage as for the teams without that money, the 9.9 scholarships is very limiting.

I question how that can be within NCAA rules and if I would even want the badger to do that if the club had that much money to throw around.
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2017, 08:37:03 AM »

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bigG
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2017, 07:15:53 AM »

It would be nice to transition to a new coach. Our school must be happy with the status quo. I'd rather lead in research than in sports, though. You don't get a ton of C Medberys out there.
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npope
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2017, 05:31:31 PM »

Comparing an institution's research ranking with its wrestling ranking is a "straw man" argument. What really matters is what the wrestling program does with its wrestlers in terms of education, mat results, future career, etc. Even if an institution has great research AND great sports, e.g., wrestling, it doesn't mean that it is meeting its stated mission. Go find the institution's mission statement and I am pretty confident that it will talk in terms of the individual - not the institution; it will talk in terms of the maximization of the individual's potential. If a school has a great sports program and a great research ranking but no connection between the individual achieving (significant) success in the classroom (and beyond), it simply isn't meeting its stated goals.

The "Ivory Tower" syndrome in action...if the academic success of athletes aren't factored into the equation.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 05:20:12 AM by npope » Logged

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Nat Pope
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2017, 05:50:46 PM »

Mission statements are nice window dressing. The best schools offer great academics and extracurriculars. My point is, we're not talking about good sports, but rather, elite athletics. PSU and tOSU Have gorgeous wrestling, and football. WI has lesser wrestling, and, usually, better hoops.

I'd love a monster wrestling team. Truth is Badgerland isn't as dedicated, as a state as are Illinois and Minnesota. We seem a bit more of a basketball state than most of us would like to believe.

"The primary purpose of the University of Wisconsin–Madison is to provide a learning environment in which faculty, staff and students can discover, examine critically, preserve and transmit the knowledge, wisdom and values that will help ensure the survival of this and future generations and improve the quality of life for all. The university seeks to help students to develop an understanding and appreciation for the complex cultural and physical worlds in which they live and to realize their highest potential of intellectual, physical and human development."

UW Mission statement

Penn State really doesn't have a mission statement so much as a mission page which delineates how it goes about excellence.

Mission statements are nice to read; but often without teeth.

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MNbadger
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2017, 06:31:43 PM »

UW Madison was in the top twenty research institutions perennially until only very recently.
It would be nice to transition to a new coach. Our school must be happy with the status quo. I'd rather lead in research than in sports, though. You don't get a ton of C Medberys out there.
The only issue with that is all the Big10 schools rank high in reserch (8 in the top 100) and a few currently rank higher then Wisconsin at #44.
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2017, 08:03:59 AM »

UW Madison was in the top twenty research institutions perennially until only very recently.
It would be nice to transition to a new coach. Our school must be happy with the status quo. I'd rather lead in research than in sports, though. You don't get a ton of C Medberys out there.
The only issue with that is all the Big10 schools rank high in reserch (8 in the top 100) and a few currently rank higher then Wisconsin at #44.

Apparently research is a subjective term: 23. University of Wisconsin – Madison

http://www.bestcollegereviews.org/top-research-universities/

Only 8 Div 1 wrestling schools (could be 9 if I missed one) ahead of WI and not many better than UW. Cornell and lesser so Michigan have consistently outpaced UW wrestling.

23. University of Wisconsin – Madison
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2017, 08:03:59 AM »

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lizard king
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2017, 12:03:50 PM »

Say what you want winning is important, then comes money, or at least at the same time.  An occasional kid will pick UW because of the academic programs, but most D1 schools are good.
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2017, 02:07:29 PM »

Yes, and WI is more alluring than most Big 10s in basketball. Other ADs would much prefer power in hoops than wrestling, for obvious reasons.
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MNbadger
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2017, 02:13:21 PM »

Overall rank is different than rank as a research institution.  Research ranking and position is very important as an issue of prestige and more importantly,money.
UW Madison was in the top twenty research institutions perennially until only very recently.
It would be nice to transition to a new coach. Our school must be happy with the status quo. I'd rather lead in research than in sports, though. You don't get a ton of C Medberys out there.
The only issue with that is all the Big10 schools rank high in reserch (8 in the top 100) and a few currently rank higher then Wisconsin at #44.

Apparently research is a subjective term: 23. University of Wisconsin – Madison

http://www.bestcollegereviews.org/top-research-universities/

Only 8 Div 1 wrestling schools (could be 9 if I missed one) ahead of WI and not many better than UW. Cornell and lesser so Michigan have consistently outpaced UW wrestling.

23. University of Wisconsin – Madison
____________________________________________________________________
True statement I found a few reviews that the were not even ranked in the to 100.
The most resent review of Top Choice College reviews and ranking no longer even lists them in there top 50 review. They did have several schools that have quality wrestling programs though.
So I guess the point is I would not use research as a recruiting tool.
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bigG
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2017, 02:22:39 PM »

UW Madison was in the top twenty research institutions perennially until only very recently.
It would be nice to transition to a new coach. Our school must be happy with the status quo. I'd rather lead in research than in sports, though. You don't get a ton of C Medberys out there.
The only issue with that is all the Big10 schools rank high in reserch (8 in the top 100) and a few currently rank higher then Wisconsin at #44.

Apparently research is a subjective term: 23. University of Wisconsin – Madison

http://www.bestcollegereviews.org/top-research-universities/

Only 8 Div 1 wrestling schools (could be 9 if I missed one) ahead of WI and not many better than UW. Cornell and lesser so Michigan have consistently outpaced UW wrestling.

23. University of Wisconsin – Madison
____________________________________________________________________
True statement I found a few reviews that the were not even ranked in the to 100.
The most resent review of Top Choice College reviews and ranking no longer even lists them in there top 50 review. They did have several schools that have quality wrestling programs though.
So I guess the point is I would not use research as a recruiting tool.

I deal with the "what's the best school" issue on a daily basis. Part of my job. Historically, US News and World Report have been the most trusted name in the college ranking business. Right now, they have Madison at 25 on the planet. I think UW has been as high as 18 to my memory. They are excellent. Maybe not the elite wrestling school some want, but dang competitive and much more so in other sports, like V-ball and Pumpkinball, both of which bring in exactly 600 bazillion dollars more than wrestling.

This wouldn't be to say that I wouldn't loudly endorse U of M-TC. One of the nicest campuses I've ever visited. Just gorgeous. I have three kids (from a class of 38) going there. I love visiting Dinkeytown and all that. Now, what do the fans up there think? Best wrestling coach in team history got canned, weaker hoops, weaker fooseball, etc. than UW. They'd better get something done in wrestling. They're not so great at much else. Iowa, too. You can tell Brands is feeling the pressure there. That's about their only sport.

Hey, I want Barry to ease in Ben Askren as my big wish list for UW wrestling. Probably won't happen; and probably won't matter much to anyone but us if they did. Wrestling doesn't exist in most peoples' minds but as a cult following.

Rank does mean something, though. Seems to be a revolving door, though, that repeats over time.

I think rank in more focused terms in more useful to prospective students.

I just threw out the "research" thing to show my preference to academics over athletics. Maybe a straw man; but rank means a whole lot more to a schools future endeavors than a mission statement.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 02:36:56 PM by bigG » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2017, 02:22:39 PM »

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bigoil
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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2017, 02:32:09 PM »

Overall rank is different than rank as a research institution.  Research ranking and position is very important as an issue of prestige and more importantly,money.
UW Madison was in the top twenty research institutions perennially until only very recently.
It would be nice to transition to a new coach. Our school must be happy with the status quo. I'd rather lead in research than in sports, though. You don't get a ton of C Medberys out there.
The only issue with that is all the Big10 schools rank high in reserch (8 in the top 100) and a few currently rank higher then Wisconsin at #44.

Apparently research is a subjective term: 23. University of Wisconsin – Madison

http://www.bestcollegereviews.org/top-research-universities/

Only 8 Div 1 wrestling schools (could be 9 if I missed one) ahead of WI and not many better than UW. Cornell and lesser so Michigan have consistently outpaced UW wrestling.

23. University of Wisconsin – Madison
____________________________________________________________________
True statement I found a few reviews that the were not even ranked in the to 100.
The most resent review of Top Choice College reviews and ranking no longer even lists them in there top 50 review. They did have several schools that have quality wrestling programs though.
So I guess the point is I would not use research as a recruiting tool.
Further analysis shows UW has been a top 5 research university, falling to number 6 last year. This is measured in dollars spent, Johns Hopkins leads the way.
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