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Author Topic: Byes in tournaments  (Read 2679 times)
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« on: January 11, 2017, 02:00:17 PM »

Rule 5-3-2 says:

There shall be no byes after the first round of competition in both the championship and consolation bracket, and no further drawing is necessary for championship or consolation rounds.

Question for all coaches:

When do you count these byes as wins?

There are a few scenarios how trackwrestling handles them. Lets take Oshkosh on the Water for example. There are 66 teams entered into this tournament but no brackets had 64 wrestlers in them.

How do you score your wrestlers wins?

1. A wrestler has a bye first round. They lose second round in the championship bracket. Are they 1-1 or 0-1? Trackwrestling says 0-1.

2. A wrestler loses their first match. Because of the bracket not being full, they have a "bye" second round. They lose their third round. Are they 1-2 or 0-2? Trackwrestling says 0-2.

3. A wrestler loses their first match. Because of the bracket not being full, they have a "bye" second round. They win their third round. Are they 2-1 or 1-1? Trackwrestling says 2-1.

I guess what I'm getting at is I'm looking for a constant across all teams, records, and weight classes, as I feel coaches can decide how to record these matches leading to different records at the end of the season (leading to seeding criteria being off). If there are no byes after the first round, why do some get credit for a win and others don't? (I understand that if you win your next match, then you get credit for that "bye" win, and if you lose your next match after a bye you don't) Why do you get penalized for having an entrant in a tournament where other teams didn't? Why are they not getting advancement points and pin points just because other teams didn't fill the weight class.

My thought is either a bye in a tournament should never count as a win or always count as a win, not determined if you win or lose a match after that bye. I lean towards always counting byes as wins and they should receive advancement and pin points for that round. It's not that team/person fault for other teams not bringing enough people to fill a bracket.

Thoughts?



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Ghetto
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 02:18:39 PM »

Here's my understanding... You have to win your next match after a bye to count that bye as a win.

In the past, I didn't count byes as wins. My feeling was that they just walked past that round. It ended up hurting one of my kids in regionals, and I stopped doing it.
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bigoil
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 02:22:19 PM »

Here's my understanding... You have to win your next match after a bye to count that bye as a win.

In the past, I didn't count byes as wins. My feeling was that they just walked past that round. It ended up hurting one of my kids in regionals, and I stopped doing it.

Your first statement is correct and consistent with TW.
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 02:30:05 PM »

Ghetto -

This is how I understand it also.

But, if there are no byes after the first round, why does the bye count as a win?
And only if you win your next match? Why?

Why are you penalizing another kid and team that produces a full roster?
If its a dual tournament, they get the win due to no one being at the weight. You don't have to win your next match in the dual tournament to get a win from your last match.

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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 02:35:28 PM »

I hear you. And I don't know.
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 02:35:28 PM »

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DocWrestling
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 02:37:03 PM »

Do byes count as matches in terms of the 5-match per day rule?

Someone cannot go 6-0 in one day?

It does look like at some tourneys like the JV challenge series that guys got byes and then wrestled 5 more times.

What is rule on that?
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 03:22:43 PM »

Do byes count as matches in terms of the 5-match per day rule?

Someone cannot go 6-0 in one day?

It does look like at some tourneys like the JV challenge series that guys got byes and then wrestled 5 more times.

What is rule on that?

Byes or forfeits do not count as matches toward the 5 match limit per day.  A wrestler can go 6-0 on the day if one of those matches was a bye.  This is outlined in the rulebook.  I do not have mine with me so please do not ask me where it is located in the rulebook.
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wrestlersdad
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 05:58:58 PM »

Isn't this due to the tournament scoring on track?  A wrestler doesn't accumulate any points for advancing through the round they got the bye in, unless they win their next match.  I seem to remember this discussion taking place a few years back.

Of course they say your memory is the second thing to go.....
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 06:03:58 PM »

FF and byes should jot count as win it should not show on a record. Maybe that would open folks eyes to ducking. When it hits close to home more folks pay attention.
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FinalWord
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 06:59:17 PM »

FF and byes should jot count as win it should not show on a record. Maybe that would open folks eyes to ducking. When it hits close to home more folks pay attention.

Again, that penalises teams that have full rosters or individuals who trained, studied, and sacrificed only to find an empty mat when callied to wrestle.
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 06:59:17 PM »

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bigoil
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 07:24:03 PM »

FF and byes should jot count as win it should not show on a record. Maybe that would open folks eyes to ducking. When it hits close to home more folks pay attention.

So there are 7 guys in a bracket, 1 seed gets the bye, he doesn't deserve a win for that bye if he advances to the finals? I wholeheartedly disagree.
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2017, 07:50:13 PM »

I agree with bigoil as he would have beat the worst seed anyway. I guess that's just the reword for having a good season.
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ramjet
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2017, 08:25:24 PM »

FF and byes should jot count as win it should not show on a record. Maybe that would open folks eyes to ducking. When it hits close to home more folks pay attention.

Again, that penalises teams that have full rosters or individuals who trained, studied, and sacrificed only to find an empty mat when callied to wrestle.

So everyone gets a participation trophy? Oh yea give them the win even though they did nothing to earn it. Penalize a team? That's laughable ! That's a problem in our society give folks something they have not earned let's keep softening the kids good idea it has worked swimmingly in society.  Roll Eyes

Now hear me out. If a wrestler knows they will not get a FF on there record as win maybe just maybe they will move up to get that match. That's what so a,my of you are crying nd complaining about is FF take away the incentives for the FF or Bye then a bye they will choose to wrestle. I know that may be the tougher route and God forbid we do that.  Cry

A computer seeding does not know the difference between a FF or win via a BYE or a hard earned win from a REAL match.
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MNbadger
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 08:58:31 PM »

Ramjet, How do forfeits and byes lead to "participation trophies" and the destruction of America?

I do not understand your point here: "Now hear me out. If a wrestler knows they will not get a FF on there record as win maybe just maybe they will move up to get that match. That's what so a,my of you are crying nd complaining about is FF take away the incentives for the FF or Bye then a bye they will choose to wrestle. I know that may be the tougher route and God forbid we do that."

In a dual, forfeits happen for many reasons.  Usually they are a rsult of coaching strategy used to win a dual.  In tournaments, they have nothing to do with "ducking" whatever that means to you.  Yes, you could accuse a kid of ducking by entering a given weight class but how does he know where the other guy is going ahead of time?

Th system we have has been in place since I was a kid.. You have to win the following round for the bye to count as a win.   It is logical and the most fair to all involved.
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 08:58:31 PM »

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ramjet
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 09:22:48 PM »

So you think it's Ok to reward a wrestler with a win for a FF? Or even a bye?

Although the coaches have zero to little control over Byes and it is a little more palatable the FF wins on record are a reward for showing up. That is exactly what a participation trophy is for. In grade school sure it's maybe tolerable but at the High School level it's a joke. If I use your line of thinking we should give points to the opposing team that is short wrestlers too after all, it's not thier fault they have declining e roll ent and a stronger BB program than wrestling. Right?

So let me ask this would everyone be ok if those FF were clearly stated as part of the record without allot of research required?

Johnny wrestler 33-5 (15 wins via FF,Byes)

Reality check = Johnny Wrestler 18-5 honestly and reality............

So Johnny is a real go getter says nope I will wrestle up do whatever it takes to get on the mat. Record now is;
Johnny Wrestler 26-12 (0-FF,Byes) too me this wrestler is far more impressive and this more clearly represents what he or she has accomplished.

Let's say a wrestler A reaches the milestone of "100 wins" let's say 30% are FF and Byes you Ok with that?
Lets say wrestler B reaches the same milestone but has only 2 FF and byes as wins.

Is the accomplishment equal?

Have both the above wrestlers worked as hard for that milestone?

Everyone on here has wised and moaned about cutting weights and why wrestling is loosing participation but nobody wants to address some core issues about the sport. Nope instead we talk about si gets and wrestling too much and a whole bunch cod,ing and snuggling and everyone's emotional well being. Bunch crybaby crapola if you ask me. The sport is what it is but we just want to have instant success for anyone who participates in it. Coddle coddle coddle. Yup I am tired of political correct BS. It's a tough sport stop watering it down.  Angry

The above represent my opinion and my opinion only I do not care if you agree or do not like it, I am not looking for you're approval!
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