Wisconsin Wrestling Online Wisconsin Wrestling Home Page
June 28, 2017, 12:34:44 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Login Register  

Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: WI Challege Series question  (Read 2666 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Handles II
Brain Damage
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3035


« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2017, 08:53:01 AM »

Hello Obviously, I don't normally post, as I am involved in our middle school program and not on the Forum a great deal.   
I've been involved in Wisconsin wrestling for over 30 years and thought I'd list what should be used as criteria for the Challenge Series (straight from wiwrestling site)


3. Region Entries:
 a. Coaches should use their best discretion when considering entering individuals into the Challenge Series. This competition is intended to accommodate ‘sub-varsity’ level wrestlers as opposed to varsity level ‘competitive’ regular varsity line up wrestlers who have been contributing members of a varsity squad during any season. As a rule, the wrestlers entered should have been representing the ‘sub-varsity’ (‘JV’ or ‘freshman’ or ‘reserve’) team the majority of the season or be wrestling varsity to ‘fill’ a weight class need, despite their competitiveness at that level. Records will not be a consideration, but a varsity competitor with a winning record, who has not regularly represented the JV at their school, is probably not a fit for this competition.
 
b. Who should be entered in the Wisconsin Wrestling Challenge Series?
Some thoughts and questions coaches need to ask themselves and consider when deciding whether to enter an individual in the WWCS.
Coaches are asked to use discretion and common sense in choosing to enter individuals in this ‘sub-varsity’ event.
-A coach should be able to say his/her conscience is clear regarding every wrestler entered in the WWCS from their team.
The event is considered ‘sub-varsity’ level.
-Ask yourself if this wrestler is a ‘sub-varsity’ level wrestler.
-If the wrestler has been on the varsity or belonged on the varsity this year or prior years, should that wrestler enter this event?
 -A ‘varsity’ wrestler should not be entered in this tournament.
 -This tournament should not be used by a varsity wrestler to fill in for a ‘missed’ varsity tournament opportunity.
 -This event is meant for high school wrestlers who are not regularly varsity wrestlers.
-This event is not to be considered as an opportunity for a ‘varsity’ wrestler to get ‘quality mat time’ or make up for missed prior varsity competitions.
Is there a set number or maximum number of matches a wrestler can have and still enter the WWCS?
-There is no set number. A sub-varsity level wrestler might have ‘filled in’ on varsity any number of times.
If a wrestler is on a ‘JV’, ‘freshman’ or ‘reserve’ team and that team has been in a Varsity tournament or tournaments, is that wrestler ‘sub-varsity’ level?
-If the wrestler is regularly winning or advancing to the finals at any varsity events, he/she is not really to be considered ‘sub-varsity’ level. Wrestlers with the ability to qualify for the WIAA Sectional and or State meet and place and even win the WIAA State Individual tournament would not and should not be considered ‘sub-varsity’ for the purposes of the WWCS

I can honestly say, some programs are not using this as intended....

One of the factors that must be considered is that of our team numbers per weight class per our other ongoing thread. As many coaches have mentioned, they very often have "sub-varsity" guys filling out weight classes, or even multiple weights. These guys might be wrestling varsity all season but in all honesty, don't belong there at all. The problem comes when as a state we have many many teams in the same boat, not filling their weights very easily. Looking at the number of tournaments as I have, it's very easy to see "sub-varsity" type guys placing regularly top 5 in varsity tournaments and earning +.500 records due to multiple byes and forfeits. I believe being in a JV tournament is the right place for them. On another team there are kids who could regularly place top 3 that can't beat out a teammate, I believe being in a JV tournament is also the right place for them.

I understand the frustration for an event like this. There are multiple issues with who is "JV", just as there are multiple issues with who is "Varsity".  Probably the best that can happen is that each coach attempts to do the best thing as a whole for his wrestlers in the spirit of the sport and the particular event. Some will always abuse the system no matter what guidelines are in place. It's how humans are and we certainly don't need to look hard to find thousands of examples of that in every aspect of our society.

Logged

Why don't mass murders use other guns, weapons or household objects as often as they do semi-auto handguns and assault rifles?
They can kill more people in a shorter amount of time.Grappler 200  "I posted the father and the others who did nothing to stop this are negligent period end of story."Ram
aarons23
Comfortably Numb
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8604


WWW
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2017, 09:19:33 AM »

If you start allowing wrestlers to compete at the challenge series that are wrestling varsity because some may consider them sub varsity wrestlers will just turn this into another varsity event.  What one considers sub varsity is not sub varsity for others.  Im ok with seniors who never broke the line up.....im not ok with someone who wrestled in the state tournament. If you are wrestling on varsity because you earned the spot....you are varsity caliber for your school....thus should not be in challenge series. This series was not designed to accommodate anyone who does make it to or place at state.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 12:32:41 PM by aarons23 » Logged

Big house"As part of my mental toughness routine ... I read the forum and try NOT to believe everything on here."

It's very strenuous! 


Opinions are not facts. Because two people differ in opinions doesn't make one of them wrong.
FinalWord
One of My Turns
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 715


« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2017, 09:44:50 AM »

If a wrestler can't make his varsity team, that wrestler is eligible to compete in "The Challenge". 
Logged

" I never met a man I didn't like except Will Rodgers."
bigoil
Comfortably Numb
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12346


« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2017, 09:49:11 AM »

If a wrestler can't make his varsity team, that wrestler is eligible to compete in "The Challenge".  

I think officially, Jackson Hemauer is eligible as it appears there are no official rules to restrict someone, however, suggestions declare that if you are a state caliber wrestler, former qualifier, you should not be in the challenge series. It is for "sub Varsity caliber" wrestlers. Someone that previously wrestled varsity and made state but is behind someone is not sub varsity material.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 09:52:17 AM by bigoil » Logged

benrud3
Speak to Me
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16


« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2017, 09:56:52 AM »

If a wrestler can't make his varsity team, that wrestler is eligible to compete in "The Challenge".  

I think officially, Jackson Hemauer is eligible as it appears there are no official rules to restrict someone, however, suggestions declare that if you are a state caliber wrestler, former qualifier, you should not be in the challenge series. It is for "sub Varsity caliber" wrestlers. Someone that previously wrestled varsity and made state but is behind someone is not sub varsity material.


Where should this high schooler wrestle then? If they can't make varsity, because someone on their team is better than them and they aren't allowed to  wrestle in a JV tournament, where do they wrestle? Or do we just lose this kid?
Logged
Wisconsin Wrestling Online
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2017, 09:56:52 AM »

 Logged
DocWrestling
Comfortably Numb
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7650


« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2017, 10:09:16 AM »

Coaches discretion is the only way to go and the series will not be diminished if very few coaches abuse it.

We sent 8 (out of 17) wrestlers that have wrestled varsity at some point this year.  Most are freshman that are only varsity because they weigh the right amount and have maybe 1 varsity match win that was actually wrestled.  We sent these kids to JV state rather than with the varsity who were also at a tournament that same day.  None qualified for JV state.

We also sent a kid that is a pretty good wrestler and is a senior but he is not able to crack our varsity lineup.  He qualified.

2 other of our JV wrestlers qualified and one 4th hoping for a call.

I think this series fits for them all.  The best wrestler of all we sent was a true JV that cannot crack the lineup.  Other wrestlers are younger and less experienced even though they have wrestled some varsity and will probably wrestle at regionals to help fill the roster.
Logged

Of Course, this is only my opinion and no one elses!
2pointTakedown
Wish You Were Here
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 143


« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2017, 11:00:12 AM »

I think this Challenge Series can grow and should grow as it's a good event.  Like some mentioned, making the right track wrestling adjustments for the coaches grading of Excellent, Good, Average will make it better.  Bracketing so the two best wrestlers don't meet right away.

Maybe have two divisions:
JV-A (varsity caliber with prior varsity and or State qualifier as a youth) Coaches know who should be here.
JV-B (no varsity experence, beginner)

Does not mater which grade as some kids start in 11-12th grade
Logged
bigoil
Comfortably Numb
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12346


« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2017, 11:06:31 AM »

If a wrestler can't make his varsity team, that wrestler is eligible to compete in "The Challenge".  

I think officially, Jackson Hemauer is eligible as it appears there are no official rules to restrict someone, however, suggestions declare that if you are a state caliber wrestler, former qualifier, you should not be in the challenge series. It is for "sub Varsity caliber" wrestlers. Someone that previously wrestled varsity and made state but is behind someone is not sub varsity material.


Where should this high schooler wrestle then? If they can't make varsity, because someone on their team is better than them and they aren't allowed to  wrestle in a JV tournament, where do they wrestle? Or do we just lose this kid?

I am not their coach but they can certainly wrestle in other tournaments, however it appears that wasn't the design of this particular tournament. I know many schools send kids to other tournaments as varsity reserve to wrestle in varsity tournaments. In fact, I think I seen two non-varsity tournaments for our team this weekend (Friday event and a separate Saturday event).
Logged

bigG
Comfortably Numb
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 24771

Woof!


« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2017, 11:10:28 AM »

Tomah will take them all. Bring 'em.
Logged

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.
benrud3
Speak to Me
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16


« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2017, 11:29:41 AM »

If a wrestler can't make his varsity team, that wrestler is eligible to compete in "The Challenge".  

I think officially, Jackson Hemauer is eligible as it appears there are no official rules to restrict someone, however, suggestions declare that if you are a state caliber wrestler, former qualifier, you should not be in the challenge series. It is for "sub Varsity caliber" wrestlers. Someone that previously wrestled varsity and made state but is behind someone is not sub varsity material.


It is ok for this particular wrestler to beat JV kids all season long, just not at this particular tournament series? Is my interpretation of your thoughts correct?

Where should this high schooler wrestle then? If they can't make varsity, because someone on their team is better than them and they aren't allowed to  wrestle in a JV tournament, where do they wrestle? Or do we just lose this kid?

I am not their coach but they can certainly wrestle in other tournaments, however it appears that wasn't the design of this particular tournament. I know many schools send kids to other tournaments as varsity reserve to wrestle in varsity tournaments. In fact, I think I seen two non-varsity tournaments for our team this weekend (Friday event and a separate Saturday event).
Logged
Wisconsin Wrestling Online
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2017, 11:29:41 AM »

 Logged
bigoil
Comfortably Numb
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12346


« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2017, 11:40:58 AM »

If a wrestler can't make his varsity team, that wrestler is eligible to compete in "The Challenge".  

I think officially, Jackson Hemauer is eligible as it appears there are no official rules to restrict someone, however, suggestions declare that if you are a state caliber wrestler, former qualifier, you should not be in the challenge series. It is for "sub Varsity caliber" wrestlers. Someone that previously wrestled varsity and made state but is behind someone is not sub varsity material.


It is ok for this particular wrestler to beat JV kids all season long, just not at this particular tournament series? Is my interpretation of your thoughts correct?

Where should this high schooler wrestle then? If they can't make varsity, because someone on their team is better than them and they aren't allowed to  wrestle in a JV tournament, where do they wrestle? Or do we just lose this kid?

I am not their coach but they can certainly wrestle in other tournaments, however it appears that wasn't the design of this particular tournament. I know many schools send kids to other tournaments as varsity reserve to wrestle in varsity tournaments. In fact, I think I seen two non-varsity tournaments for our team this weekend (Friday event and a separate Saturday event).

Yes, you are reading what I wrote correctly. That is my interpretation of the spirit of the Challenge series. That said, you have the judgment as a coach to do what is right.
Logged

Thats2
Speak to Me
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7


« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2017, 06:11:08 PM »

It really comes down to the "eyeball" test.   We all have seen kids on varsity that are really JV caliber just to fill a weight and Varsity level wrestlers that just can't crack their own team's lineup.  If anyone doesn't know or see the difference, they are missing the point of the "Challenge" series.  

I'll use an example: Stratford was sooooo loaded last year that the young 106 could not consistently crack the lineup.  Can anybody (with a clear conscience) say that kid was "Sub Varsity" caliber?  Yes a wrestler of that caliber was technically a reserve, but well above a "Sub Varsity" level wrestler.   BTW,,,  I chose Stratford as an example because they are well respected, well coached and (unless I'm mistaken) chose not to send their kids to the Series.  

I think what people have an issue with is when formerly ranked Varsity or a top level wrestler competes against and dominates lesser opponents.   As I posted before....   Please read the criteria I grabbed from wiwrestling.   It really shouldn't be hard to dispute, yet programs still do it.  I think our sport is (or should) be above it.... Embarrassed  The sad part is not everyone involved plays by the same rules.  

The Series is a GREAT EVENT, and glad Wisconsin has it.....  I just have an issue with Programs skirting the rules when they really don't need to do so

« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 06:15:54 PM by Thats2 » Logged
Wisconsin Wrestling Online
   

 Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!