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Author Topic: Filling WI Weight Classes: The Data  (Read 4854 times)
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getyourpoints
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« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2017, 11:36:52 AM »

LG,
As you know I understand and respect the struggles a lot of the small schools are having. I also truly feel the team dual aspect starting at a young age is one of the many steps needed in regaining our numbers. I am sounding the alarm on cutting draw backs, expecialy with schools with declining numbers. We all understand schools in shrinking towns will need more cuts in another 5 years while booming towns may start to ask for more weight classes.
This is a US issue so let's look at the big picture and go with the federation recommendations.
We need to start fixing things by changing the 7&7 rule.
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jeast
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« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2017, 12:00:45 PM »

I honestly think youth wrestling has hurt the sport more than anyone seems to want to admit. I'm all for Jr. High wrestling, even 5th and 6th grade wrestling. Kindergarten through 4th grade is just too early.
Wrestling can be a very scary sport to a 6 year old. Especially competition. (it was scary for me when I got head tossed in nationals in college) Wrestling practice for a 6 year old can and SHOULD be fun! Not competition. I try my best to dissuade parents from letting their child of age 6, 7, 8, and 9 years old compete in tourneys.

Go to any gym hosting a youth tourney this coming weekend. I will bet there will be between 250 and 400 youth wrestlers there. Go to any HS tourney this weekend and there will most likely be very, very few full teams of 14. Why? Lots of reasons but the biggest reason in my opinion is that kids are tired of it. They have been giving up every single weekend since kindergarten.

I tell parents that ask, you'll get about 8 years of competition out of your athlete. If you start them in Kindergarten, they'll most likely be done by 8th grade. End of story.

Yes, I know that elite wrestlers with PROPER parental support won't burn out, but those are not the athletes that FILL teams. It's the average kids that fill teams. They are not out anymore. They are tired of it.

Want full teams in High School?  Cut out the competition from age 6-9. I bet you'll see an increase in kids going out in HS.

But, "Johnny loves competing in wrestling!!!  He always wants MORE!"  As a parent, it's my job to ensure that my child is told no. Turn a kid loose in a candy store and they will eat til they puke. Is that good for them? Same holds true in any athletic competition. Sure, the kid thinks he/she wants MORE! But in the end, they will tire of it sooner than High school comes.

Just my two cents worth.  Tongue
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« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2017, 12:09:12 PM »

jeast I agree on your statement of 8 years.

getyour,,,,one of the biggest things that work for us was youth duals. just getting kids from other school and strictly a match up and go. no team scores but man the youth we had do it was out of hand.

I think that basically teach just plain and simple tumbling with the little guys/girls. though by 3rd grade they seem to pick up some wrestling out of it. the big problem is that no matter how much you talk to parents they seem to want to get that shinny medal for their kids at such a young age. Also while I dont like those youth tournaments the money you can make is incredible. kind of like a bad makes a good. that money we make as a club certainly goes upstairs to help the high school and such. not sure if that is an evil but I certainly wouldnt say it is over all outstanding.

The big question, is where you want your kid to be competitive or the top of their game. 4th grade or 12th grade. that is what you can talk about but usually most dont find out until their child is no longer in the sport before high school hits.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 12:43:05 PM by littleguy301 » Logged

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« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2017, 12:18:57 PM »

Jeast +1. They need very little competition at the young ages. We re doing more scrimmages and duals for these ages and 1-2 tournaments for grades k-2 is encouraged and then a little more ,3-4  in 3rd ad 4th grade. Keep them away from the insanities(kids tournaments) as much as possible. At those tournaments, parents need to let coaches coach and parents parent and if there isn't a coach, there the parent should be there and say nothing( very hard, trust me, as a coach and a parent) especially at the young ages, let them FIGURE IT OUT on there own. They cant determine at that age if Dad is jacking them up or coaching them(probably trying to do both). We all get to be Papa Bear when or kids are competing, but we need to let them enjoy it and work with them at the proper times. I don't even coach my kids in practice. When they ask me about technique or situations then we talk about it. As far as kids saying no, KEEP THEM HUNGRY!!!!
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 12:59:20 PM by colekaden » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2017, 12:29:35 PM »

I agree with Jeast that numbers would skyrocket if wrestling did not start until 5th grade.  I know it will never happen.  But everyone would start out the same and everyone that tried other sports and quit would join.  Now we make it so hard for kids to join later because they get pounded by the ones with experience.

I think this would be true in all sports.  Not just wrestling.  The elite wrestlers may not be quite as good but we would have higher numbers.

2 college coaches have told me that they have a much higher percentage of kids wrestling all 4 years in college if they did not start in K-4th grade because they agree with you that most kids have a maximum in years they enjoy competing.

I actually coach our K-2 program.  We focus on fun and fitness and introduce wrestling.  It is only 8 practices, once a week in January and February.  I advise parents to not go to tournaments.  Many parents want more and some even leave to wrestle in other cities with higher frequency.  There is even debate within our club.  No wrong or right answer but right now we need numbers in our program more than we need experienced talent.  I am not sure if even the K-2 program I coach helps or does more harm as many kids first day they get bumped and they are crying and some never come back.  Always wonder if that kid will ever try the sport again when they are more mature.  Once we have numbers then we can start pushing maybe more but my personal goal is simply to try and get as many kids wrestling in middle school as possible and to enjoy the sport.  If they are athletic and start in middle school they can accomplish big things and pass many kids by that started earlier.

To me tournaments are mostly a waste of money and time below 3rd grade.  Not sure why 9 minutes max of wrestling in an entire day and an award is somehow better than an hour practice.  Occasionally maybe it makes sense if the wrestler is having fun at the tournament with friends and maybe that is more fun and different than just another practice ("fun" usually depends on the parents).  I don't know of any other sport that has competitions below 3rd grade.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 12:33:58 PM by DocWrestling » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2017, 12:29:35 PM »

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Handles II
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« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2017, 01:00:55 PM »

I honestly think youth wrestling has hurt the sport more than anyone seems to want to admit. I'm all for Jr. High wrestling, even 5th and 6th grade wrestling. Kindergarten through 4th grade is just too early.
Wrestling can be a very scary sport to a 6 year old. Especially competition. (it was scary for me when I got head tossed in nationals in college) Wrestling practice for a 6 year old can and SHOULD be fun! Not competition. I try my best to dissuade parents from letting their child of age 6, 7, 8, and 9 years old compete in tourneys.

Go to any gym hosting a youth tourney this coming weekend. I will bet there will be between 250 and 400 youth wrestlers there. Go to any HS tourney this weekend and there will most likely be very, very few full teams of 14. Why? Lots of reasons but the biggest reason in my opinion is that kids are tired of it. They have been giving up every single weekend since kindergarten.

I tell parents that ask, you'll get about 8 years of competition out of your athlete. If you start them in Kindergarten, they'll most likely be done by 8th grade. End of story.

Yes, I know that elite wrestlers with PROPER parental support won't burn out, but those are not the athletes that FILL teams. It's the average kids that fill teams. They are not out anymore. They are tired of it.

Want full teams in High School?  Cut out the competition from age 6-9. I bet you'll see an increase in kids going out in HS.

But, "Johnny loves competing in wrestling!!!  He always wants MORE!"  As a parent, it's my job to ensure that my child is told no. Turn a kid loose in a candy store and they will eat til they puke. Is that good for them? Same holds true in any athletic competition. Sure, the kid thinks he/she wants MORE! But in the end, they will tire of it sooner than High school comes.

Just my two cents worth.  Tongue

+ 1000

There certainly are kids who can go K-College, but those are very few and far between. To retain numbers, focus on practice, not competition. Unfortunately so many other sports are "game" based. Youth baseball is one practice a week and then a 6 game tournament on the weekend. The unknowing parents get sucked in by the overzealous organizers and fear of falling behind.
Start kids in 4th/5th/6th grade and we will have more in high school.
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« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2017, 01:25:10 PM »

Jeast (and others), "Go to any gym hosting a youth tourney this coming weekend. I will bet there will be between 250 and 400 youth wrestlers there. Go to any HS tourney this weekend and there will most likely be very, very few full teams of 14. Why? Lots of reasons but the biggest reason in my opinion is that kids are tired of it. They have been giving up every single weekend since kindergarten. "

I agree with you about too much competition too soon but.... Your quote is a bit contradictory to other things you and others are saying....
If I am not getting this right, I apologize.

Yes, a youth tournament will have those numbers but that is because you are drawing from a wide area and large population.  A high school dual could be drawing participants from say two towns with populations from as little as 100-400 people.

Also, those youth tournaments have those numbers and they ARE NOT a dual format so it likely is not duals that will fix any declining wrestling numbers.  Numbers have slowly and steadily increased nationally.  I think we are looking at a small town problem ie.; declining populations in rural areas.  Now having said this, I teach in district with a high school of 2100 plus.  We are not fielding a full wrestling team.  We have three middle schools each with roughly 600-700 students.  The middle schools can barely get enough girls to field a basketball team.  My MS had 6 girls the first day, now has 11.  One would think they would have had 40-60 out and had to cut, no?
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« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2017, 01:29:20 PM »

This is a parental decision and the child's/family decision ........period end of story. Liberal mind set and thinking to regulate common sense and good parenting.....gheeesh.
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« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2017, 01:47:20 PM »

Ramjet, How do you see anything to do with "liberal" (whatever your definition of this is....) anything here?
And no one suggested "regulating" anything.
And to be clear, I lean the same direction as you in regard to competition though I do think we have too much too soon in most sports.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 01:49:59 PM by MNbadger » Logged

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« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2017, 02:06:27 PM »

We just have to remember that the people that are posting on this forum are crazy wrestling junkies.  The sport will always have these. What the sport needs to be worried about are the kids that participate but are not wrestling junkies.  The overwhelmingly majority of HS wrestlers don't know about this site, don't look at the rankings, etc.  They just show up.

I am not against youth tournaments but I do believe not even half of the kids should actually be there as they are not ready physically or in maturity. Some are but parents of those that are ready should not be dragging others to these tournaments and those that do not go to the tournaments should not discourage those that may be ready.  My experience is that maybe 3 out of 10 kids at youth tournaments 4th grade and younger should actually be there.  We have to be honest about what kids are ready for as parents and as coaches.
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« Reply #69 on: January 04, 2017, 02:06:27 PM »

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getyourpoints
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« Reply #70 on: January 04, 2017, 02:10:26 PM »

what age kids should start at is a great debate but deserves a different thread.
From the many conversations I have had on this topic(cutting weight classes), today I learned a major factor in why we have 14 weight classes.
The WIAA isn't as nearly concerned with FF as they are with specialization. If you cut weight classes you make it  more difficult to make it too or place at state. This would lead to more wrestlers quitting other sports to focus more on wrestling which could have a dramatic affect on other sports.
The WIAA cares about each sport equally.
Let's be honest cutting weight classes has several negative possibilities so it will never happen.
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Big Steve
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« Reply #71 on: January 04, 2017, 02:16:30 PM »

This is a parental decision and the child's/family decision ........period end of story. Liberal mind set and thinking to regulate common sense and good parenting.....gheeesh.

Huh??? You are right, it is a parent/child's decision but the thread is about filling weight classes and it was one's opinion that starting too early is one of the reasons that teams aren't filling all the weight classes.
Maybe, we should just go to 50 matches a year for our 4 year old's. Drop the age groups for the three state series, that way I can run around and boast how proud i am that my kid was state champ. I can wear his medal to the high school meets and explain why he doesn't wrestle anymore but he was a 4 year old state champ.
You are right, every parent will always do the right thing for the overall success of sport....there i go with that darn liberal mind set...

On a serious note, i would like to know what Pat Kilty thinks will continue the overall growth of Womens Wrestling? Would you be in favor of a WIAA high school women's only series? Obviously, not all are going to be as successful with the boys as your daughter(i assume your daughter). I agree this is where growth needs to continue. If the BIG TEN would get a couple of teams on board i think it could really explode.
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« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2017, 03:10:17 PM »

what age kids should start at is a great debate but deserves a different thread.
From the many conversations I have had on this topic(cutting weight classes), today I learned a major factor in why we have 14 weight classes.
The WIAA isn't as nearly concerned with FF as they are with specialization. If you cut weight classes you make it  more difficult to make it too or place at state. This would lead to more wrestlers quitting other sports to focus more on wrestling which could have a dramatic affect on other sports.
The WIAA cares about each sport equally.
Let's be honest cutting weight classes has several negative possibilities so it will never happen.

The number one reason why we have 14 weights is because the NFHS has 14 weights. The WIAA has no desire to deviate from that. If we went to 12 weights nationally, they WIAA would fall in line without any argument.

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« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2017, 03:11:48 PM »

I am ready for more data Handles. Are you going to work through the holiday tournaments? Maybe you did and I missed it.
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« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2017, 03:11:48 PM »

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getyourpoints
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« Reply #74 on: January 04, 2017, 03:55:28 PM »

Ghetto,
As I do typically agree with you on most things, I am sure you right that the WIAA took that stance from the From information distributed by the NFHS.
So more evidence that we need coaches like you working on things within our control. No sarcasm at all, I have heard from several folks that you are a great coach.
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